A Culture of Intolerance: Insights on the Chi Chi Man Craze and Jamaican Gender Relations with Julius Powell of JFLAG

JP: Isolation. There continues to be isolation. Jamaica is still a very conservative society. It gives this perception of being a "Christian country" to determine its way of life, and norms are pretty much shaped by what they consider to be Christian values. So, I continue to be isolated, my parents know, my father is still struggling with it, but most of my siblings really don’t speak to me. That’s not uncommon in the gay community. It’s difficult, you know, because you grow up in large families in the Caribbean, so to be isolated from your family is hard. But, institutions like JFLAG, provide a safe space and a community and eventually becomes our real families in the long run.

GS: I wanted to ask you about the notion of safe space. Do you feel "safe" in Jamaica? Have you seen violence against gays personally?

JP: For me yes, it depends on where you are. There are politically two Jamaicas, uptown and downtown, referring to the inner city. If you are gay and uptown (meaning you have money) you are immune to the discrimination and abuse to an extent. There is what we consider to be a "Victorian Silence" in that people know that you are gay, they might speak to you, but the topic is not entertained, they don’t speak about it at all! There is no reference made to your "other side." In reality you are pretty much ignored and you are only viewed or seen in more of a professional manner. And depending on how high in the social stratum you are, then you are pretty much immune to abuse because of your sexual orientation. What normally happens is that those persons become complacent with the situation…

GS: The ones that live uptown?

JP: Yes. They are satisfied with their reality. They do not want to advocate for legal and advocacy reforms because it means that you are going to break down the society and everybody will be on the same plane, and that’s where the issue of class comes into play. Because class is still a concern in Jamaican society, [people who feel that] you and I ought not to be on the same plane or on the same playing field. So the experience of a gay man in uptown Jamaica is not the same experience, or his reality is not the same as someone coming from downtown.

GS: So how did you gain an awareness of what the differences were like from a downtown perspective? I presume you were exposed to that later?

JP: Yeah. I am actually from a working class community. I am not wealthy, but because of education in our system you are on an "ascribed base." You are pretty much moving from one state to the other. But even though there is the possibility of upward or social mobility through education, it does not mean that you are accepted in the long run. So even though I am coming from the working class I don’t expect to be totally accepted by people uptown. Some of my friends do not speak to me because they think that I am too "out" by participating in organized activity such as JFLAG. They think that that is too liberal a position to take. So you are not invited to parties, you are not invited to their homes, if they see you on the street, they will talk to you but that’s pretty much it.

GS: And have you been able to form some alliances with people in a "downtown" context?

JP: Oh yes actually we do. Despite the scenario we have formed relationships. JFLAG in the last two years has seen a change in that relationship. We recognized that we definitely have to be in touch with as wide a cross-section of the population as possible. We have been bridging that gap between uptown and downtown. So we do reach out to people uptown to give support, more than likely they will give support behind the scene. That’s fine, because not everybody is at that stage where they are prepared to be upfront. Some people are quite ready and prepared to contribute behind the scene and that’s fine. We are happy if that’s what they want to do. You don’t have to be holding placards, you can be writing letters, or attending meetings. To answer your question, my discrimination has come in the form where it has not been violent to the degree that we speak about. I have had on occasion my house stoned, where I lived, in an area called Pembroke Hall some years ago. I have had to move three times because of my sexual orientation and for fear of being killed.

GS: People would tell you? Would they threaten you directly or indirectly?

JP: Oh yes, they would tell you. Pembroke Hall is a residential area that is renowned for being very abusive towards gays. At that time, I was studying part time and had to leave school at 9:00 p.m. I could not take the public transport, I could not take the bus. Because the boys would sit on the street, and wait for us to come in, in the nights.

GS: That’s you and your partner? The two of you, they would wait?

JP: Yeah. While I did not suffer the verbal abuse on the street, he would. One of the reasons I figured is that he did not speak to them; they felt pretty much ignored. I would hear some comments, but it would not be as obvious as when my partner walked down the street with me. But at nights, they would stone the house repeatedly, every night. And hurl abuse. That is frightening. Most roofs in Jamaica are corrugated zinc sheets. So you can imagine hearing stones pelting on your roof at 10:00 or 12:00 o’clock at nights. For us it meant that we had to stay by a friend until [near midnight] and then take a taxi home. We had to take a taxi to work and we had to take a taxi home in the nights. And that’s costly. Not every gay person in Jamaica is able to do that. Some people cannot afford to do that. They have to ride the bus, and have to walk home. And those guys will have to protect themselves and so they have to walk with knifes because they live in violent communities. They will tell you that they have to protect themselves. The straight guys on the street will tell you, well look, we don’t care if you are attacked, because the songs preach that type of violence.

GS: Do you take those calls for violence in the music seriously?

JP: Yes we do, because people have been killed. We have had 47 murders since 1982 which we have directly attributed to their sexual orientation. We had a murder around three weeks ago, but as is customary, the cases are not investigated. The police come but once they "speculate" that the person is gay, there is no further investigation.

GS: So Julius, I would have to presume that at this stage an important part of JFLAG’s work is to mobilize international attention?

JP: Oh definitely. In the last year we have been doing speaking engagements, we have been collaborating with the International Lesbian Gay Human Rights Commission, we have been working with the International Lesbian Gay Association (ILGA) out of London, we have been working also with Amnesty International, Sao Paulo Pride, we have been doing some work with them to help mobilize support regionally as well as internationally. We were targeting Latin America because we also wanted a perspective from the South, being a developing country. We also needed to model our programs from the South, so that would also counteract the view that, when people speak about cultural relativity, and say that, you know, "This is not a part of our culture!" Then we can say well look, we have models.

GS: We have to redefine what is our culture.

JP: We have to redefine what is our culture. There are models outside of the United States which we are willing and prepared to work with and have been working with.

GS: Are you seeing any progress at all in terms of that having an impact as to whom you are able to dialogue with in Jamaica?

JP: Well yes. The fulcrum of JFLAG’s existence is the Legal and Advocacy Reform Committee, and that committee is responsible for advocating for Constitutional Reform. Jamaica is actually looking at revising its Constitution. We have applied for an amendment to the Constitution to allow for sexual orientation to be included as a basis for non-discrimination. And we appeared before the Joint Select Committee of the House of Representatives in June of this year where we presented our Oral Submissions to the House, and for us that was a major achievement, because…

GS: Just to be able to speak before the House?