A Culture of Intolerance: Insights on the Chi Chi Man Craze and Jamaican Gender Relations with Julius Powell of JFLAG

JP: Just to be able to speak before the House, was a major hurdle.

GS: Was that given quite a bit of coverage in the Press?

JP: Television Jamaica (TVJ) carried a program just two days before we were to appear before the House. It was a talk show and call-in program, and that was a lot of coverage for us. We had radio interviews, just after our appearance before the House. But not as much as we anticipated.

GS: Has there been any subsequent debate? How seriously is that being taken?

JP: Well the House made some comments, and we are now researching our responses. That will be sent back to the House of Representatives as a White Paper for comments. But in terms of the debate in the wider society, I think it has elevated the discussion from under the table. It is now on the table and is now being considered seriously. I don’t think they anticipated the essence of our [written] submissions. Our submissions actually speak to Jamaica’s intolerance and the constitutionality of that intolerance.

GS: What is your feeling as to the source of that sometimes virulence or intolerance?

JP: It is felt that it is cultural, that we are a Christian country and that our homophobia finds justification in the Bible. But I think that if we aspire to be a non-theocratic society then we should not be using the Bible to make moral laws.

GS: I come from a fundamentalist background, in West Texas and Okalahoma, that is homophobic. But you don’t find artists calling for the murder of gays. What is your sense of where that comes from?

JP: As to where it originates, it’s a bit hard to pin down. Their central argument [that of mainstream, anti-homosexual society] is that it is a foreign import. Because we have been colonized, homosexuality wasn’t in our society at all until colonization.

GS: Until you were colonized?

JP: Until we were colonialized! So that argument for us cannot hold. Because sexual orientation has nothing to do with the fact that we went through a process of colonialization. That does not affect one’s sexuality. What people would like us to determine is whether or not this is an innate or learnt behavioral practice. To be upfront, JFLAG does not have the resources to go into that debate, which has been going on for years. What we want to say now is that, "Look, this is a human rights issue, that we have to protect the inherent human dignity of people here. People are being murdered, people are being victimized, people are being fired from their jobs, people are being killed, and look human rights violations are here!"

GS: In the part of the culture that we deal with, musically there is a strong equal rights and justice tradition. Has anyone from JFLAG been able to have dialogue with some representatives of Rasta or reggae musicians and talk to them about an inclusive conception about equal rights and justice?

JP: Well we have been arguing with other civil action groups. We don’t just defend the position of gays only. We have made position statements on child sexual abuse. Because another argument that will come is that only homosexual men molest children. We have stated clearly our position on child sexual abuse, you know, because for us we do share strong objections to pedophilia in any form. We are also opposed to discrimination in any form, in any shape or form, not only discrimination towards gays and lesbians. So we have looked at our position in the wider society but not just from or totally from a gay perspective because there are other issues, which affect Jamaica society.

GS: Yes, well I know how important music is in Jamaica. It would seem that if a change in consciousness were to occur, then musical expression would have to play a part in that process. Are you hearing that anywhere at this point?

JP: No! Because if you go on the airwaves, there is still a deluge of reggae songs which will tell you that [there is no change.] And you mentioned Rastas; No, reggae is reggae. Reggae is not confined to a particular group. Reggae is not endemic to the Rastafarian community. So you have to make that clear, because your listeners would not know. Anybody can sing or be a DJ, you can be a DJ from uptown, you can be a DJ from downtown, and they perpetrate the same song, the same technique.

GS: It seems like there is a huge demand for that kind of music among the audience. To what degree do performers actually share that perspective, or are they playing it for audience demand?

JP: I think it is primarily audience driven. Behind the scenes one or two will tell you that’s what the audience wants to hear. The only person that has said anything positive was Beenie Man, despite his current song.

GS: Well he is a schizophrenic.

JP: [Laughs] Well Beenie Man actually said he has to work with gay people, that’s the reality, but if you look on a list of songs, take the top 10 or top 20 and trust me, it has not changed much. I am looking at a list compiled by Jamdown Records, and three out of the top 10 songs are anti-gay songs. To name a few: Spraga Benz, Goofy, and Elephant Man. This intolerance comes about because this is presumed to be a "Christian country" and nothing more!

GS: We know that there has always been this relationship between what’s popular in Jamaica and what sells "a foreign," as you say.

JP: Well all of this is affected by the culture. The "cultural stereotype" as we know it is reinforced by a primary law, S.76 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. The Act states that: "Whosoever shall be convicted of this abominable crime of buggery, committed either with mankind or with any animal, shall be liable to be imprisoned and kept to hard labour for a term not exceeding ten years." If I traffic drugs, I get three years. If I have anal sex, I get ten years of hard labor.

GS: Well that’s insane!

JP: Yeah, so what is this? The police do not need a warrant to kick off my door, to come into my room. All he needs is a telephone call from my neighbor.

GS: Do you think that a change in perceptions can happen in Jamaica without international pressure?

JP: Well Jamaica is a very homeostatic society. It’s like the body--whenever it’s cut it has to heal itself. They do not believe in change! It’s a society that does not change, that’s why we have a two party system, you either vote for one or the other. There is no room for third parties in this country…

GS: We have the same problem in the US.

JP: Yes. There is no room at all for any discourse outside the mainstream. There is no concept of the "other"; there is no understanding of difference. Diversity does not enter the psyche of the average person.

GS: I remember going to Jamaica in 1987 and seeing a woman who was a Miss Jamaica Fashion Queen. When she started dating a Rasta her parents were horrified! Mainstream attitudes towards Rastas seem to have changed to some degree because of the international presence of Reggae music. Well I mean, Bob Marley did not get any airplay until he opened for Stevie Wonder in Jamaica and became an international superstar. I find that at this time, many North American reggae fans are unwilling to criticize homophobia because they want to feel that they are "authentic" and they feel the "authentic" expression of Jamaican culture is anti-Chi Chi. So therefore, if they come out against this they are therefore showing that they are not authentic. So there is a gap there. But musicians from Jamaica would not be able to make a living without the international audience.

JP: I think they would not.